Comments on The Legend of Cecilio Guante: RIP, Starting Pitching

Change sucks I hate change

2008-05-12T17:39:00.000-04:00

Change sucks I hate change

good debate. personally, i'm of the "pitching wins...

2008-05-12T17:04:00.000-04:00

good debate. personally, i'm of the "pitching wins championships" camp. you have great pitchers, you ride them. sure, you want to protect them and not unreasonably or recklessly wear them down...but relief pitchers are relief pitchers for a reason. there aren't a lot of elite ones out there. if your horse has thrown 92 pitches through 7 and is cruising, trot him out for at least the 8th and maybe the 9th. too often that situation is prompting a walk to the mound and bullpen doors a-swingin.

Windier e. megatons' comment was pretty accurate, ...

2008-05-12T16:58:00.000-04:00

Windier e. megatons' comment was pretty accurate, don't you think? You can't just look at IP, K, W, etc without looking at the historical context. The 80s were much better for pitchers, just like the 60s were MUCH better with a huge strike zone and a higher mound.

And you can't really cite Gibson to support your argument because he was a physical freak w/r/t/ endurance. He's maybe 1 in 1000000. It's just smart to keep a strict pitch limit--these guys are investments. When you have a $100 million then you can pay guys to pitch for your amusement til their arms fall off.

I am working on a similar thing today and came acr...

2008-05-12T16:24:00.000-04:00

I am working on a similar thing today and came across this response from Bill James: "In 1970 major league teams used 1.75 relievers per game. In 1990 they used 2.02 relievers per game, and in 2007 they used 2.97 per game — and the rate of increase in this area is still accelerating."

Pretty soon we will see 4 IPs minimum to get a Win. It is disgusting. 5 man rotations, 100 pitch counts and they still can't go 8 innings. Forget it if you are a K pitcher. You're out in the 5th. no matter what!

I agree with your post 100%. Anybody who starts ni...

2008-05-12T15:51:00.000-04:00

I agree with your post 100%. Anybody who starts nitpicking about Gooden's downfall is just missing the point of the story.

There's no doubt that complete games have become s...

2008-05-12T15:18:00.000-04:00

There's no doubt that complete games have become shockingly uncommon. But you have to look at it from the perspective of depth - if you've got several live arms in the bullpen, why do you want to force your starter to throw 9 innings every game when you probably have a better chance to win putting a fresh reliever out there in the 7th or 8th over your flagging starter?

Also, this isn't all the fault of the pitchers or even of general managerial tactics. Strike zones have gotten smaller and hitters more selective; thus starters are forced to throw more pitches and they wear down sooner. It's not necessarily that today's starters are less capable of throwing complete games - the act of throwing a complete game itself has just become that much more difficult, in my opinion. And unless your bullpen is absolutely awful, where's your motivation to leave a guy in unless he's throwing a shutout?

His career took such a tumble in 1986 because he w...

2008-05-12T15:00:00.000-04:00

His career took such a tumble in 1986 because he was doing more blow than Tony Montana.

yes, that is quite possible and a good point. perh...

2008-05-12T13:42:00.000-04:00

yes, that is quite possible and a good point. perhaps the 52 complete games (by that time) was a bit much. regardless, though, the philosophy has gone way too far the other way. you also never know on some individuals. perhaps it had something to do with his off-field stuff, too. get where you're coming from, though. gibson, ryan, seaver, even feller and ford, all threw a ton of innings, but most not as many as quickly.

I may be a little off, but is it possible that one...

2008-05-12T13:12:00.000-04:00

I may be a little off, but is it possible that one of the reasons that Gooden's career took such a tumble was that he had logged over 1400 innings as a pro by the time he was 24? Just a thought.

Good stuff. And funny, the first guy I thought of ...

2008-05-12T10:04:00.000-04:00

Good stuff. And funny, the first guy I thought of was Doc Halliday—a throwback to a real Hoss pitcher.

I can understand why an organization wants to have "Joba Rules" but I think a pitcher needs to learn how to grow and extend his innings as he develops.

A a result of all this, I'd like to raise the mound back up again to where it was before 1969. It'll never happen, but it might at least give the pitcher's a fighting chance.